Reading the following article made me think about the origins of our ways of knowing and how this might affect our ethical stance with regard to other animals:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/30/chimpanzees-emotions-ethics
Here are some TOK-related questions to which you may want to respond:
1) How can we know if animals experience feelings that correspond to the emotions we as humans possess?
2) If certain animals (such as chimpanzees) are indeed receptive to the kinds of emotional experiences with which we are familiar, would that obligate us to treat those animals ethically?
3) Would such an ethical treatment extend to recognizing that animals have rights? Can anyone or anything have rights without responsibilities?
4) Why might we make the existence of feelings or emotions the deciding factor in our ethical attitudes to animals? Why not the ability to construct or use language, or to reason effectively? Or, for that matter, to perceive?
First of all we have to have a language, to communicate with animals, how is it possible for a human to know if a chimpanzee is feeling hurt or happy? If humans had a language that commonly runs together with animals, it would be easier for us to communicate with animals. Honestly, I do not think that we as humans can ever know if animals possess the same feelings or emotions we have. For all we know, humans would end up assuming that an animal is sad, because they are also sad. There is a slight possibility that we might get to know if animals have the same feelings and emotions as us, that is staying with an animal for a long time, knowing its habits and observing it.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the article says that they had been observing the animals, my question is How long have they been observing and what makes them so sure that the Chimpanzees were actually mourning? I agree that an animal have feelings but is it logical to say that “Chimpanzees can have their feelings hurt?" Apart from this being surprising humans only judge from their own perspective, seeing a chimpanzee sad after one its own has passed away, is the same as seeing a human sad after they had lost a loved one. What I am saying is , for the researcher to conclude that chimpanzees have feelings the researcher might have experienced death and his experience might have caused him to judge like that. I am saying this because of what the researcher says, she says “I welcome the interest in this subject. For many years I have wanted to see an end to claims of human superiority based on the belief that animals, even if they feel, do not have the "higher" emotions of humans based on the capacity for symbolization and self-awareness. This attitude derives from Judeo-Christian assumptions of human superiority, where it is believed that God created the universe and all life within it for man." by all means her results will be biased as she tries to justify her hypothesis.
By observing animals and interacting with them we are able to tell certain things. For instance when an animal is angry it behaves as irrationally as some people do. Maybe not all their emotions correspond to our but they do have some. One of which is very obvious is fear.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not animals have any emotions similar to ours, they should have rights. Just because we are the higher being does not give us the right to subject them to any sort of experiments we want. I believe that as humans we think that if animals don’t have feelings it wouldn’t matter to hurt them because the wouldn’t feel anyway but that gives us no right. Having emotions does not make us better than them and should not be a reason to treat animals that way. I don’t believe its about emotions I believe that humans just want to feel that they are in control.
Cynthia - you are right to warn us about the danger of projecting emotions and feelings onto animals. This is easily done; often called anthropomorphism.
ReplyDeleteBut researchers have tried to devise ways of investigating the mental states of creatures that cannot talk to us and tell us what they experience. Babies also belong in this category - for example, you can measure the length of time an infant looks at an object or event as an indicator of attention, interest, surprise (as in a violation of their expectations), etc.
Research from biology shows how close we are genetically to other primates, so if emotions and other ways of knowing have their basis in our genetic heritage it would seem odd if these primates did not share a great deal with us concerning the life of the mind.
thanks Mr Kitching i didn't know that!!!!!
ReplyDeleteCynthia did state “I do not think that we as humans can ever know if animals possess the same feelings or emotions we have. For all we know, humans would end up assuming that an animal is sad, because they are also sad” if I’m wrong somebody help me but from what I know from evolution, humans originated from “animals” sapiens, if indeed this theory is true then I believe that animals should also feel and have the same emotions as humans.This means our assumptions are correct!!!!!!!
jokes!!!
ReplyDeletei don't think we need a language to communicate with animals like chimpanzees. Cats purr when they are happy and also react differently when sad. as humans i think we should be able to interpret some of these emotions and not necessarily interpret it as a language. When a baby is hungry , mama is able to tell it's hungry why can't we then tell if a dog hasn't eaten for five hours, that its hungry. as humans we don't need a language to communicate with animals, we just might overlook or not bother about their wellbeing. For this reason humans can easily interpret emotions of animals as they are similar to that of humans.
Funny,
Whether chimpanzees have similar emotional response to humans or not, i don’t think the treatment given to them will change. Let’s face reality. We don’t even treat our fellow human beings as we want to be treated how much less animals. Scientists use even use humans for experiments so having similar emotional experiences with animals will not change the fact that they are inferior thus not treated ethically. Humans have rights yet they are abused so why will animals be considered above humans. This very funny... Animals having rights, who will protect them and see to it that their rights are not violated...come on!!!
I think as humans we are aware and use emotions and reasoning to communicate with animals but do not make them the deciding factors in treating animals ethically. This is attributed to the fact that humans don’t treat each other ethically and so find it hard not to kill animals when they kill their fellow beings. Humans may have the same emotions as animals because they originated from animals but that does not change the perception of humans concerning animals. Again we might even be misinterpreting their emotions...if u disagree try making a baby comfortable when it starts crying and count the attempts made.....ethics or no ethics, animals will be animals!!!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting question...but somehow i believe that we can hurt a chimpanzee's feelings. I know you are now wondering how possible it is to tell/read a chimpanzee's feelings, it may not be the best way but it surely is reliable.
ReplyDeleteWe have luckily 'attached' some common behaviors to specific feelings. In short, we behave in a certain way depending on how we feel. for example, when i frown and won't talk to anyone it's possible that I'm angry. With animals, they use sounds to a large extent to convey their feelings although some like dogs, can use facial expressions. You can tell when a dog is angry just by looking at it and even its behavior, will support its feelings also when its happy or jovial, normally its calm and would want to play with its master.
You possibly cannot tell me that you can punch a chimpanzee really hard and it wont cry in such a way that would suggest that its hurt or at least run away because its scared. Sometimes when they are attacked, they became very defensive.
On the other hand, we are humans trying to read animals' feelings. we have no similar language and the closest thing we have is the behavior trend. How can we be possibly sure that we are actually telling the exact feeling of the chimpanzees? Maybe since we are used to feeling our fellow human's feelings i think we are just extending it to the animals and treating them like 'they' are humans...maybe.
I was so intrigued by this article which brings one into actually taking a critical look into not only the human society but which also drives one into taking a step further into doing something which I would love to refer to as, “ service above self”, caring for animals.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I am one of the people who believe that animals and specifically chimpanzees do have feelings and probably the only difference between human beings and these animals is the way in which either expresses their feelings. Food for thought:
1. When you throw a stick or stone at your dog and you “hurt” it, don’t you hear a whining sound or a barking sound from it? How different is that from a human being whom when you throw a stone at, will probably cry and in anger yell at you?
This is just for us to ponder on the fact that don’t these animals really have feelings or we as human beings are ignorant of these feelings and always do tend to give excuses for our cruelty.
In conclusion, maybe due to the fact that we tend to feel sad or angry when someone does something bad to us (like the above scenario I came up with) we are also forcing or inflicting ourselves to think that, in fact animals also do have similar feelings to human beings and therefore conclude that, they also deserve to be treated like us. This is just to add upon what, Professor Marion Dawkins mentioned in the article on Chimpanzees, “The main reason this distinction is important is in case we go to the opposite extreme. If we assume animals have identical emotions to humans, perhaps we will insist on treating them as human. But until we know what animals really feel and what those feelings are, then treating them as identical to humans might be just as cruel as ignoring their feelings.”
Wow, this article has really inspired me to think more deeply about other species having similar or the same emotions e.g happiness,sadness and depression.Although man has dominion over all the species in the world.Their presence must not be taken for granted.As expressed in the article Chimp's have as much knowledge of their surroundings and have ways of expressing their emotions.However,the way they express themselves is similar to man.However, just because we have similar characteristics it does not mean that man should treat them the same as themselves however we must respect their habitats and be careful when we cross paths with them.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with what most people have already said;that animals may have emotions. i am compelled to believe this as a result of personal experiences and articles such as the one being discussed here. what i'd like to add is that our supercilious attitude towards chimps and other animals we consider below us may stem from animals' inability to express these emotions by means of language. Ultimately, my point here is that language may play a pivotal role in asserting the emotional capability of animals.
ReplyDeleteAmPoNg
I would agree with what most people have already said;that animals may have emotions. i am compelled to believe this as a result of personal experiences and articles such as the one being discussed here. what i'd like to add is that our supercilious attitude towards chimps and other animals we consider below us may stem from animals' inability to express these emotions by means of language. Ultimately, my point here is that language may play a pivotal role in asserting the emotional capability of animals.
ReplyDeleteAmPoNg
Animals are very different from human beings,but yes,they do have feelings.Surely not as deep and developed as those of humans,but they do.If a lioness for example,takes the initiative to protect and feed her young ones, it means she loves them,even if she cannot say it.Normally,when you try to harm an animal's young one when it is around,it would try to protect it and harm you at all cost.Also,usually,when dogs in a surrounding loose one of theirs,they make mourning sounds.Same for a chimpanzee.This has been observed.
ReplyDeleteThis may not force us to treat them ethically,but give us the kowledge that whatever we do to harm them is wrong.We unfortunately have to judge this issue using our emotion because human beings and animals do not have the same capacities,as such animals contribute to the greatest extent they can,as such their responsibilities should be limited,as their thoughts and emotions as compared to humans are very undersized.As to which ones exactly should be taken into consideration,we have to find out.
Claire.D
When I read this the first thing that came to my head was the limitations of the human mind and how that controls everything we do....the closest TOK concept I can relate this to is Constructivism where it is believed that the world we see and perceive is just a construction of our minds and is only limited to the capacity of our sensory organs. For example; the world will be VERY different if our eyes were able to see gamma rays and sound waves you know? We can’t even fathom it now. Anyways BACK TO THE TOPIC; we are will only be able to even imagine emotions possibly felt by animals we can fathom. What if animals felt this different emotion we didn't have and so could not understand? How would we treat them "ethically" then? How would we even know? -cuz we would just link their reactions to the closest possible human reaction there is and interpret it as something it really isn't, in which case we could possibly be treating them unethically (if you know what I mean). However it does not mean they can have rights without responsibilities. If we recognize animals as beings with feelings and therefore rights then they must be charged with the responsibility of respecting the rights of others. That is if a chimpanzee was to attack a human, it can't be excused as being a dumb animal, It outta get punished uknowatImean???? And the last question. I think we make the ability to feel the determining factor for the allocation of rights because humans are highly empathetic beings. We always think about "what if it happened to me?" I think that is the point of having rights anyway, so that no one is treated unfairly, u kno? –everyone gets the same things. =)
ReplyDeleteAll animals have feelings and for as long as we can feel pain when necessary the same applies to other animals. The truth is that man would prefer to be considered in a different way but the truth is that we are also animals. Someone times we hurt other animals’ feelings unknowingly…..when you come to think of it, do we always have to do things that would suit other animals then what about us? I strongly think that as we try to minimize the extent at which we hurt other animals like chimpanzee’s feeling we should also think of the benefits to the human kind in making that decision. Humans are the only species of animals that can hunt down and kill another human without having any reason what so ever…and so I doubt it if a human would care that much about other animals if he can kill his own kind. I also know that there are some people who can consider the feeling for the other animals.
ReplyDeleteSelzy!: I'm not sure that constructivism is claiming that the world we see and perceive is JUST a construction of our minds; rather that the mind, its particular nature and the experiences it can draw on all INFLUENCE what we perceive.
ReplyDeleteMussy wrote: "All animals have feelings and for as long as we can feel pain when necessary the same applies to other animals".
Are you sure? We are not using "feelings" and "sensations" to mean the same thing; feelings are connected to emotions.
What about a jellyfish? It doesn't even have a brain. What about a tapeworm? An insect? A snail? A millipede? A starfish? Don't we have to draw a line somewhere?
Cynthia stated that "I do not think that we as humans can ever know if anumals possess the same feeling or emotions we have. For all we know, humans would end up assuming that an animal is sad, because they are also sad." This claim i find very interesting because some animal feelings and emotions could actually relate to that of humans. I could partially agree with you about the fact that we could not know some animal feelings and emotions, but you cannot completely conclude that humans can never know how animals feel, and that is where the disagreement comes in. And about the last statement in the quote, humans will not necessarily conclude that an animal is probably sad because the human is sad. Animals could actually be sad because their owners are not in a good mood or are also sad. Take a dog as a common example, when a human is happy, the dog is also likely to be happy and otherwise. Dogs and other animals also wag their tails when they are happy, and with that, it can be known whether a dog is happy or not.
ReplyDeletethank you.
scorpion
Scorpion said: Animals could actually be sad because their owners are not in a good mood or are also sad. Take a dog as a common example, when a human is happy, the dog is also likely to be happy and otherwise" I do not disagree with you, what I meant was we can never be sure and certain of what an animal is feeling.
ReplyDeleteI must admit that I am quite biased towards this topic. I do not feel that animals should have rights, but there are some situatuions that that they are put in, in which we must think twice about their emotions. We don't know the emotions of other specie of animals, that is why whe are were created differently. However, if we put our motives aside and think about the welfare of the animals, some decisions must change. In thinking twice, our emotions and feelings must work alongside our ethics to make such decisions.
ReplyDeleteWell Cynthia Ncube,i kinda agree with you, but i still stand by my point that well, we can not be certain about all animal feelings and probably emotions, but it doesn't take away the fact that we could still tell whether an animal is happy or not, and i still stand by my dog example. There is likely to be a level of uncertainty involved in predicting animal feelings and emotions, but it still doesn't take away the fact that we can never be sure of what an animal feeling or emotion is.
ReplyDeletescorpion.
I believe all animals have feelings. Without emotion or some form of language, animals will be unable to effectively communicate with themselves. Animals have different ways of expressing their feelings, some of which are expressed in the article. The idea of the Chimpanzees standing around the body of their dead associate in a quiet and respectful manner is unlike their natural behaviour and depicts them as having emotions similar to humans when a member of the society is lost.
ReplyDeleteI also think that once an animal recedes to a position which removes him from the world, it should be alone and its actions should be respected since infringing on its privacy may have dire effects. I’m not saying that animals should be treated exactly as humans since they lack certain qualities but their presence should be regarded and their actions respected.
Edwin - please see my comment further above. Some animals don't even have brains - how can they have feelings and emotions? If we think that a jellyfish should be respected (nothing wrong with that), I suspect we will need to find other criteria for doing so. What should those be?
ReplyDeleteThere are many different attitudes towards the forms of life on this planet, and these attitudes are informed by assumptions and prior beliefs. For example, the famous and highly influential French philosopher of the 16th century, Rene Descartes, believed that animals were essentially machines that operated on soulless mechanistic principles. Judaeo-Christian scripture encourages people to think that humans are supposed to have "dominion" over other creatures. How are these views likely to influence they way people treat and interact with other forms of life?
My original questions are, I think, still valid. Should the existence of feelings/emotions in an organism make a difference to the way we treat it? And why this criterion instead of any other?
I remember, i saw a documentary video which experimented about whether dogs have feelings. From various experiments and observation, they claimed to a large extent that it was true.
ReplyDeleteThey experimented about the way dogs breathe. Dogs breathe in differnet pitches and ways to show emotions. For instance, a dog who welcomes its master or who is excited about anything, breathes in a particular way. Also, when a dog senses danger, it also breathes in a differnt way. This was tested on other dogs as well. The sound made by a dog who was claimed to be "excited" was recorded. This was played to two other dogs who were fighting. Surprisingly, the two dogs stopped fighting and came together as if they were close.
This was an experiment I saw which triggered my mind to think about the fact that animals have emotions.
However, I also believe that it has a limit. Or perhaps there is no limit at all, predicting that we as humans cannot understand what animals use as language.
The jelly fish which does not have a brain could be considered out of the question from the view of humans since we believe that brains make living things think. However, what if there is something that we do not know? that is the limit we have always in the knowledge that we have about other living organisms.
Dont scientists say that one of the next best mammal that has the highest IQ level followed by humans are chimpanzees? Wwll then, we could, from the article, conclude that they indeed have emotions?
Personally i think animals have emotions, except the fact that other questionable ones have not yet been found out.
Thanks
This is definately a heated argument!
ReplyDeleteIt is often said that human beings are “upper” animals. And if you also believe in evolution, you would agree that human beings and animals, especially chimpanzees are closely related. From observations I’ve made I believe animals have feelings and emotional experiences. I therefore agree with Abigail’s statement that a cat would purr when it was happy. To cite another example, lets go back to the jungle. Most wild male animals get jealous when they see their “wives” with another male of their kind. Some go to the extent of chasing their replacement till they catch them and kill them. This comes to show that animals do have feelings. Human beings in a same situation will act similarly but with more sense. I doubt any man in their right state of mind would kill another man because his wife was cheating on him with her. This however, doesn’t necessarily mean we should change the way we treat animals. They do have their rights. We do not have to maltreat them and harm them for no reason. But they are a source of food for us and if we have to kill them to eat them, there is NO DOUBT that we would. However, we can do so in a subtle way so that we do not “hurt” them.
The question about rights without responsibilities is also very interesting. But I think animals also have their own responsibilities. They do take care of their kids and stuff and they also serve as a source of food to us. Some domestic animals like dogs also guard our houses at night. Parrots serve as entertainment in the home too, even though they can be a nuisance sometimes. Also, some animals like elephants and lions also perform for us in the circus.
In sum, animals are not always useless, they do have one responsibility or the other and it is also just fair that we treat them with some sort of respect!
w humans have feelings and emotions and i suppose chimps too have emotions and feelings. we may not feewl the exact thing that the animals do but we can tell from their actions of looking at one of theri own and trying to see if he is still alive that they are mourning. also all animals exhibit some feelings which we either interprate as happy , sad,or angry. we can not say the animal is bored because we cannot feeling that feeling of bordom inside the animals. Futhermore as humans we judge things differently and we can interprate the emotions exhibited by the actions of the animals. all in all we can hurt a chimps feelings and they can respond either by getting afraid or getting furious aand throwing things on us . taking other animals sometimes animals correspond to humans feeling, for insatnce when you are sad a dog will come and stay with you as a sign of comfort a and when you are in a jovial mood it will be jumping up and down wagging its tail.
ReplyDeleteevery feeling results to an arousal of an emotion but not every emotion is a feeling.for example the feeling of pain can result to an emotion i.e anger,distress etc but an emotion like happiness or anger is not exactly a feeling. back to the question i think that almost every creature ,yes we are also creatures , have feelings at least if not emotions. by this i mean that any live creature can feel pain ,hungry,etc. this feelings are primary and this is what results to emotions. feelings are like stimuli and emotions are like the response. an organism doesn't have to have emotions before it is treated with respect. the fact that it is alive means that it has feelings and this is enough to treat it well. the problem is we do not understand animals like we would have wanted to even if we observe them for a very long time. i think that it is clear that every organism has feelings at least if not emotions. this can be tested easily by perhaps subjecting it to pain and seeing the reaction. if it reacts then it has feelings but it is impossible to know whether it has emotions. this is impossible to know since we are limited in this study. the fact that not all animals can express their emotions as human can doesn't give us the right to maltreat them. the organism being alive is enough to tell you it has basic feelings. this is my slant.
ReplyDeletehi every1..
ReplyDeletei think as we deal with animals we should remember that for the animals which we humans claim we know what they feel and as to when they feel, we have to remember that these are animals which have lived with humans for sometime.
taking a chimp for example as we have read..these chimps are taken care of by humans in the game reserves or elephants, which have to live with their caretaker since they are young...these animals form a bond with them thus sharing similar feelings when in joy and happiness..
we as human beings tend to use our own feelings to explain what animals are feeling.but what shows that we are not wrong.?and the feelings we generally i think other animals share with humans are pain,anger,(which is seen through their nature of aggresiveness)and fear.
but do we ever get to know that an animal is happy.?well apart from dogs which you will normally see them running and jumping up and down. but how sure are we that they are really happy.again with sadness, we cannot really tell that an animal is sad because even on the article on the chimps which were seen to be (sad)when one chimp died, below there is a video of it and you can see some chimps playing around with the dead body.
i think all animals have one right which is the right to live.i think it's a matter of believing here.i.e..whether you believe that animals have rights or not
Chimpanzees are animals and therefore have feelings and therefore they can be hurt. Animals in general tend to have their own way in which they express their feelings. They use forms of language which are not familiar to humans and it seem like they have no feelings. Their way of expressing emotions is different as shown in the article. Chimpanzees standing around their dead counterpart just support the idea that their feelings can be hurt as they also mourn their loss.
ReplyDeleteI would say that animals and we humans are not the same, but then humans should not take advantage and mistreat animals. Humans should be ethical!
paul c bwalya